I am not familiar with her work but looking on Amazon her writings seems to concern Second Temple Judaism and builds on Alan Segal’s “Two Powers” idea. They just want to be seen by posterity as having picked the winning side. I read in this the implication that Paul studied in the language of the tradition – Aramaic, and perhaps Hebrew (or perhaps not). When are you going to let this go? I wanted every answer to be sound, succinct, and accessible to our audience. I’m just now seeing the reply to my comment. Do Christians Have to Believe in the Virgin Birth? Bart, thank you for sharing this. The debate was a really great experience to watch. I kept meaning to pay fhe $5 but it’s free now. That isn’t good scholarship, and how has he ‘won’ his arguments? by Neil Godfrey . The total collapse of a civilization makes it hard to know, in subsequent ages, how that civilization conducted itself. In this debate ( audio | video | transcript) Misquoting Jesus author Bart Ehrman argued against Calvinist Apologist Dr James White concerning the textual reliability of the New Testament. 4 it is not necessary to mention that Tiago was one of the brothers already mentioned, which suggests that the public was already identified with the situation. Well, he explicitly says Jesus first died and “then” he appeared. Midwestern is a Southern Baptist institution. At first, James White’s academic credentials look impressive: B.A. Ravi Zacharias’s Ministry Investigates Claims of Sexual Misconduct at Spas, After the Allegations Against Ravi Zacharias, 10 of the Best Books on Sports and Christianity from the Past 10 Years, Complete access to articles on ChristianityToday.com, Over 120 years of magazine archives plus full access to all of CT’s online archives. Out of the 13 letters of Paul found in the New Testament, skeptical critics like Bart Ehrman will only grant that 7 of them are genuine. White’s post-debate report of the debate is HERE, which is a good listen.Here is part 2 of White’s review of the debate. Doesn’t it depend on how many people believe the idea? I was rather stunned to learn this. Which do you think it means? In HJBG, you concede that “what normally happened to a criminal’s body is that it was left to decompose and serve as food for scavenging animals” (157). In Galatians, Paul identifies James as the Brother in the first chapter, it is not necessary to repeat his qualification in the same letter. There are other verses in which Paul calls people by name without qualifying them as “the brothers of the Lord”. That’s why you can find any number of stories around the world that resemble the gospel story in one way or another. It was because of what he was saying about Galatians. I had committed to a public debate with the prominent agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman. Why did I choose to face this giant? “Appointed” implying he was designated by his resurrection while “declared” could imply designated earlier but then simply “declared” at his resurrection? Ehrman was talking about the facts of what we know. That doesn’t help answering whether Paul started with memory of the historical Jesus being crucified and then shaped it according to Deuteronomy 21:22-23 in Galatians 3:13, or if Paul is indicating in Galatians 3:13 that he discovered that the celestial Jesus was crucified by an allegorical reading of Deuteronomy 21:22-23? Each blog member is allowed to make 2 comments a day. He wants to avoid facing that by calling it uncivil to prove he lied and made mistakes. Why would anyone say somethhing like, so and so “even admits” something when that something is something that everyone thinks? What you are thinking about? Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Jesus went to John to be baptized because he wanted his sins to be forgiven. And yes, again, like just about every other scholar I know, I think some (lots) of figures in the Gospels are not historical AND that (of course!) by Neil Godfrey . “Ehrman even admitted in this debate that some historical persons are invented in the Gospels (e.g. I guess I must have missed it. Michael R. Licona | June 21, 2019 Thank you for taking the time to clarify this. -Yes, Paul would be downright flabbergasted to know people had twisted his words into an historical Jesus of Nazareth. Great simple answer – I thought that was over the top until I read about an even bigger conspiracy theorist than him–Robert Eisenman. Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Do you think there were Christian proto-mythicists in the 1st century who believed whatever the apostles witnessed 6 or 7 decades earlier was some sort of reenactment of events that had taken place in eternity past? -James was no biological brother of Jesus. But Bart, if Mythicism is not credible and it is so obviously wrong, why is it that even great scholars of Christianity can’t demonstrate its falsehood? And Sheffield (like you) has a massive ego that he's assuaging so now he can go to other folks and say, "But I debate Bart Ehrman," as if this makes him the next James White or Dan Wallace. why wouldn’t he admit it. I especially appreciated your responses to the questions about Bayes theorem and the historicity of Paul. What makes you think some of them don’t believe what they’re saying? Both questioned the dating of Quirinius' census, which is reported in Luke's gospel. And thankfully I have that option by subscribing to the blog!! Maybe some new follower of Jesus offered a tomb, and maybe a lot of other things. He us perfectly willing to admit he could be wrong – I greatly admire this. Bart, have you read “Creating Christ” if so what are your views? Richard Carrier does what accuses the interpreters of Tacito and Suetonius to do, manipulating the data much more than what is explicitly there. I will agree that it is mostly pointless because the silly idea of an historical Jesus is firmly entrenched and the basis of the largest world religion. Already a CT subscriber? to establish Paul’s usage of archon independent of the passage about Christ having been crucified by the rulers (archons) of this age. You can go to conservative websites and see people saying this or that denier of evolution or global warming totally confuted and defeated the mainstream scholars he debated with at this or that event. An example, in your case, would be your change of mind about the burial of Jesus, something Price mentioned during the debate. I told him I’d want to debate Ehrman, and Roberts set it up. It should be very easy. The topic for our debate was “Can historians prove Jesus rose from the dead?” My nearly completed doctoral research focused on this very topic, so I was confident I knew more about it than Ehrman. Watching this debate is the reason I was pointed out of the direction of mythicism. in Gal 2:9, 2:12 and 1 Cor 15:7 he is just James. I am not going to go into the bios of each debater or what I … Question: you use Romans 13:1ff. Review of Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities by R.A. Baker Probably due to an undercurrent of anti-Catholic sentiment in the United States that began with the Puritans and can still be found among American Protestant fundamentalists, there remains a dearth of knowledge and understanding of early Christianity. That’s it in a nutshell. Approximately 1,500 people attended the event live, and an estimated 70-80 thousand people viewed the debate on-line or via television on the Gospel Broadcasting Network. I’m not a mythicist, but I think there are more and less intelligent ways to argue mythicism. 4.25 stars: There is a lot detail packed into this epic debate. His scholarship was leading people away from the Christian faith and sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of many others; he needed to be answered. The only Jesus Christ that Paul knows is the one he’d seen in visions and somehow read about in scripture – as did everyone else who Paul writes about. I appreciate having had an opportunity to articulate some mythicist viewpoints on your blog over the last few months, and also to exchange opinions with you on some of its interpretations. If he did, he would have been too tough to … Were the visions a result of someone physically dying or because of a revelation? I don’t think we know what would have happened at Jesus’ trial before Pilate. But they’re only trying to disprove Jesus. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. 2020 Schedule of Speaking Engagements Professor Bart Ehrman is much sought after as a speaker for colleges, universities, divinity schools, civic groups, and religious organizations of all types. of them are problematic. If this sounds weird and different – you’re right! To unlock this article for your friends, use any of the social share buttons on our site, or simply copy the link below. Want To See My New Book Manuscript? At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. In 1 Cor 9:5 Paul identifies some rank and file members as “brothers of the Lord” to differentiate them from apostles, just like he does in Gal 1:19. I had committed to a public debate with the prominent agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman. My Article on Christmas in Newsweek: Part 2, Christmas from a Historical Point of View. Bart Ehrman debates James White on Did the Bible Misquote Jesus? The people at the meeting were amazingly welcoming of me (even though I take a position they disagree with) and I had a very good time. Bart argued that the Jesus presented in the Gospel of John is radically different than the Jesus presented in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke). Wouldn’t everyone be? Glad to join here. Even Mark Goodacre and Craig Evans couldn’t do that; especially Evans who performed terribly at the debate. How many years do you want to spend defending a silly pointless idea that most fundamentalist Christians never give a solitary waking thought? I hadn’t realized mythicism was so boring! But Robert is a nice guy and I finally yielded and said OK. He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. White didn't disagree with him on the facts. Paul does not say where or when this Christ died, buried or raised. But down inside, we’re all the same flawed fallible frightened creatures, seeking transcendence over our tiny limited lives. As many of you know, this past October I had a public debate with Robert Price on the question of whether Jesus actually existed. Joseph of Arimathea). But NO, I definitely do not think Aramaic sources means “eyewitnesses” and have explained repeated why, in the past, it is just the opposite. -Where does Paul make it clear that Jesus was a living breathing human? I recently finished watching this couple of years old debate between you and Dr. Price. This question is not directly related to the Mythicist issue, but let us suppose that Jesus did exist, then my question relates to the languages they spoke at that time. Dr, I have just watched this debate in full , so I apologize for going back two years lol! What really bothers me are those who know Jesus was a real person but promote the mythicist view anyway. In 2 Peter 1.16, 17 he is not trying to defend that there was a human Jesus, which was quite obvious, but to defend the miraculous things that happened. Next, Paul goes into the chronology of Christ visions translated as “appearances”. April 5, 2014. Credit and Debit Cards Processed: Visa, MasterCard, Maestro, AmericanExpress, Diners Club, JCB, UnionPay, ApplePay, and GooglePay. Were things still cordial between you after the debate? Ehrman repeats a lot of what he argued in the 2006 debate, even on issues where Craig had corrected him. He was an established scholar, an award-winning professor at a prominent university, and a New York Times best-selling author. Paul spoke to the Athenians at the Ahora about the “unknown” god. No I don’t believe Romans 13 is widely considered an interpolation. Answer–he wouldn’t have needed or sought baptism–unless he never had any such idea of himself. Midwestern is a Southern Baptist institution. He calls into question the authority of the New Testament as scribal changes over time have changed the documents. Why did Bart Ehrman really leave Christianity? Sarah A. Schnitker, Jay Medenwaldt, and Lizzy Davis. If you have listened to a podcast by him, or seen another debate, or read one of his book you would see this. Yes, the mythicists can be amazingly dogmatic. It can mean both things, or possibly better “designated.” Even if you say “declared,” though, I think you’re saying that he was not declared/called this *before* that event. In their view it is their major trump card against Mythicism. This kind of immature ad hominem criticism is why Bart Ehrman won’t debate him. My favorite book by him was The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. Is there a book that goes into details of this argument.? White’s post-debate report of the debate is HERE, which is a good listen.Here is part 2 of White’s review of the debate. I find the mythicist argument to be irritating and annoying, like a fly that won’t go away. Looks like it will cover some of the same ground as your new book. In contrast, I was still a year away from completing my PhD and knew far less about the New Testament and early Christianity. The Dark Side of the Bart Ehrman-Robert Price Debate. He appears to be an ultra-conservative evangelical, so somehow I don’t think our books will be competing on the same market. There is a lot of junk in both what some mythicists say and what some believing Christians say about history of Christianity. No, I”ve never been asked to debate him. If there were no witnesses, how do we know what was said even if we knew what languages were spoken? Maybe I’m overthinking this word. If you don’t belong to the blog yet, JOIN!!! Very enjoyable. If I may stray off topic a bit… I’m reading “How Jesus Became God” and looking at the creed in Romans 1:3-4, you use the words “appointed Son of God…by his resurrection” in verse 4 and when I look at the NIV, NASB, KJV and the NKJV, they translate the words as “declared Son of God…by his resurrection”. Ehrman… The event was part of the “Mythinformation Conference” Buzzed Belief Debate Series presented by Mythicist Milwaukee at Turner Hall in Milwaukee, WI on Friday October 21st 2016. Hence, those who debate Christians frequently appeal to Ehrman's works. But even if it were, you don’t establish whether a text is original based on quotations of church fathers; they simply quoted whatever was relevant to what they were talking about. He currently serves as the president of the Atheist Community of Austin and hosts the internet radio show “Non-Prophets Radio” and the Austin television cable access show “The Atheist Experience”. To share this article with your friends, use any of the social share buttons on our site, or simply copy the link below. Nor can he claim that because, e.g. Galatians 1:18-19 sounds very clear where Paul says he met with Cephas (Peter) and no other apostle except James, the brother of the Lord. William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman Debate the Question "Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?" One day, perhaps, he will write a major book on this subject. Reply. I'd never debate Ehrman (whom I like), but not for the reasons you won't debate me (you'll notice the difference is I don't just disparage Bart left and right with insults). Anyway, I’ve been wondering if some of the sayings of Jesus were misattributed to him. -I’ll never let go because the evidence is so obvious. Jesus spoke with Pilate privately in the “What is truth” exchange at his trial. I’ve been blessed by my friendships with debate opponents, despite strong disagreements. You can’t simply claim a verse is interpolated because it says something contrary to what you think! The Dark Side of the Bart Ehrman-Robert Price Debate. (here’s Midwestern’s report of the debate) Jim Elliff, a man I knew from my days as a Reformed Baptist, thinks debating Bart Ehrman is a bad idea: Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Evidence to the contrary (1 Cor 15:8). No, haven’t read it. The next topic that I was asked to address is the work of Bart Ehrman who is the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and the best selling author with Oxford University Press in their retinue of various authors. Paul didn’t say he met with brothers Peter and James, but distinguished James as the brother of jesus. Christians have no idea how weird and different Paul’s mythical beliefs really were. But there’s an awful lot we don’t know about how the Roman system operated. A living man who had been crucified, something nobody ever even attempted to deny until the 18th century. In other words, using Hollywood vernacular, the Gospel Jesus was a zombie. Question 2: Dr. Price mentioned two places (one in Revelation, I forget where the other comes from – Hebrews, maybe?) Traditional Judaism then (and now) does not like translations very much, though it was more accepting of Aramaic (such as the Onkelos) than of Greek (ie, the LXX). Joseph of Arimathea). On April 4, 2014 I debated Dr. Bart Ehrman on the campus of the University of North Alabama in Florence, Alabama. But that NEVER means that the verse itself is an interpolation. Here are some of things he claimed, “Ehrman even admitted in this debate that some historical persons are invented in the Gospels (e.g. His main point was that the differences didn't matter. Jesus is the core of Christianity. Some of it seems to be innate to all humans. But some unquestionably are fabrications. I would expect the text to comment on the language used only if it was not obvious, so the absence of any mention of a translator is to me an implication that one was not needed. This an interesting debate between two excellent scholars who come to two very different conclusions. His experience combined with the publishing reputation of Oxford University Press makes The Bible a visually appealing and user-friendly textbook. I can’t even begin to explain his reasoning. It would seem much in the text is simply invented. Saying historians shouldn’t debate holocaust deniers just lets the belief grow when they get someone gifted in rhetoric to espouse such beliefs. Christianity Today strengthens the church by richly communicating the breadth of the true, good, and beautiful gospel. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and is a leading authority on the New Testament and the history of early Christianity. Unexpected things do happen in real life. So Join! And got basic facts wrong. It won’t cost you much and you’ll get tons for your money. If you don’t belong to the blog yet, JOIN!!! Bart Ehrman on the Existence of Jesus Author Amy K. Hall Published on 09/27/2016 Greg mentioned this quote from skeptic Bart Ehrman a couple of weeks ago on the podcast , and I was able to find a video. Actually it’s the mythicists that need the brother argument. 2. In this debate ( audio | video | transcript) Misquoting Jesus author Bart Ehrman argued against Calvinist Apologist Dr James White concerning the textual reliability of the New Testament. I had never heard of Bart Ehrman before but the exact opposite happened in this debate. Ehrman’s probabilistic switch. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. But you’d think someone would have. No such luck. The visions where neither of a dead corps nor an alive person who was seen “again” or “afterward”. (here’s Midwestern’s report of the debate) Jim Elliff, a man I knew from my days as a Reformed Baptist, thinks debating Bart Ehrman is a bad idea: They want Jesus to not have existed. 1:14, to take another example, Paul says that he was extremely zealous for the traditions of the fathers. Given how unusual Jesus’ life had been, it’s possible what happened to his body after his crucifixion was also unconventional (though not supernatural), and that this helped create the legends that came to surround his passing. While I disagree with that position it does seem like it could possibly make sense in some way if you follow that logic. —Bart Ehrman from our debate. Twice! But he did basically argue in this debate that we can prove some content of the Gospels goes back to Aramaic sources which are therefore contemporary eyewitness sources. I'd never debate Ehrman (whom I like), but not for the reasons you won't debate me (you'll notice the difference is I don't just disparage Bart left and right with insults). Sorry — I think I misunderstood the question. Well I watched this in the hope of hearing some evidence for the mythicist view. – Discussion of debate by Matt Dillahunty, Dr. Richard Carrier, David Fitzgerald and Kristyn Whitaker Hood join hosts Sean Fracek and Jason Lawson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBouQbYpqM And apart from the passage from Romans where Paul is clearly making mention of the consequences of Christ’s resurrection, as Christ being the first to be resurrected, and of the “inheritance of eternal life”, I do not recall any other text where Paul calls Christians co- heirs. It is curious that he took on your issue regarding the archaeological evidence of the existence of the town of Nazareth as his first order of business, but added absolutely nothing to the discussion of it that already occurs in the book. Details: Bart Ehrman is well known as a US New Testament Scholar who lost his Christian faith and now… They choose very clever counterpoints that superficially appear *correct* and do so under the guise of scholarship. And Sheffield (like you) has a massive ego that he's assuaging so now he can go to other folks and say, "But I debate Bart Ehrman," as if this makes him the next James White or Dan Wallace. Crossan and others expanded the list of options for what we have to think about in this area. So, what follows is Christ talking…about Christ. Thanks for sharing this debate Bart. The opening salvo this year comes courtesy of the indefatigable Bart Ehrman. The differences in the stories come from the fact that we’ve had different experiences, different cultures. Pilate never showed a shred of conscience for anything else he did, so why should he do so in this case? Held at College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, Massachusetts on March 28, 2006. From my understanding Dr. Price suggests that if Jesus was a real person who he was is so wrapped up in the myth and the legend surrounding him that who he was has been lost. IT seems Richard Carrier wrote his review of your debate with Dr. Price. One question though – the name of Margaret Barker came up several times. And yet, there I was, committed to debating Bart Ehrman. The next topic that I was asked to address is the work of Bart Ehrman who is the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and the best selling author with Oxford University Press in their retinue of various authors. But ‘winning’ would be coming up with a better explanation, and Carrier can’t do that, and neither can Price. Have something to add about this? Carrier and Price have contributed absolutely nothing. Each week on the Bart Ehrman Blog Podcast, John Mueller will read two posts from the Bart Ehrman Blog – the first will be a post from the not too distant past, and the second will be from the blog archives (one published roughly the same calendar week but from years 2012 to 2016). – Preview video of debate by Mythicist Milwaukee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPJh94tA14I I am not going to go into the bios of each debater or what I … Bart Denton Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early … Ehrman is a formidable debate opponent for many reasons, not least the aggressive rudeness that causes him to interrupt Williams not once but three times during Williams’ designated time for closing remarks. Hence, those who debate Christians frequently appeal to Ehrman's works. Should an astronomer spend their time studying and collecting data on stars, planets and comets, or debating people who think the moon is made of cheese? Professor Bart Ehrman is the author of more than twenty books and has made appearances in various news outlets on TV and in magazines. If he did, he would have been too tough to … No one is good but God.” And the Prices over on the other side explain this away as well. Not always in a very civilized fashion, that we can say for sure. All comments will be moderated by the post author before release. If one takes the mythicist viewpoint, then where did those Aramaic sayings come from? Approximately 1,500 people attended the event live, and an estimated 70-80 thousand people viewed the debate on-line or via television on the Gospel Broadcasting Network. Paul said he met Jesus’ brother James, a man who has been independently attested as being Jesus’ brother by blood. Each week on the Bart Ehrman Blog Podcast, John Mueller will read two posts from the Bart Ehrman Blog – the first will be a post from the not too distant past, and the second will be from the blog archives (one published roughly the same calendar week but from years 2012 to 2016). He calls into question the authority of the New Testament as scribal changes over time have changed the documents. That’s what I thought, just wanted to confer with the foremost text critic in the world! And I’m kind-a thinking that I’ve already debated one mythicist, and probably that’s enough. Luke’s Version. Please keep your comments relevant to the issues discussed in the post. Received from who? They don’t want an improved understanding. What he thought Jesus was before and after his mortal life is another matter. This is a beginner’s guide to comprehend Ehrman, and the scholarly response from Christian apologists to debunk his attacks against Historic Christianity. You are on the same side as them. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. Bart Ehrman needs little introduction to readers of JGRChJ. Christ himself! Enter the later Gospels whose writers decided to interpret Paul’s celestial resurrected Christ as being a man, who used to be dead and three days later was brought back to life. Since your field is the history of the NT and the textual study of the documents you must have some thoughts on this. Strauss said: “when we find details in the life of Jesus evidently sketched after the pattern of these prophecies and prototypes, we cannot but suspect that they are rather mythical than historical.